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  1. #1
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    Conservatism -vs- Liberalism

    Without disecting which is right or wrong....do you think people claim one side or the other based on religious view points or political view points?

  2. #2
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    political, my dad is an athiest but a republican, my mom goes to church reguarly, but is a democrat and in other countries where the average person is more liberal, they still are religious. In the US its more about ethnicity then anything else, jewish and black people are very liberal, and asians tend to be more conservative.


  3. #3
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    Define liberal. Over here the liberals (the political party that claims to be liberal) is even more conservative than the religious right, if we except the Christian-fundamentalist party.
    The left side of the political spectrum is mostly atheist, though.

    I think such a connection is very hard, or impossible to make.
    The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough. - Rabindranath Tagore

    Keep true to the dreams of your youth. - Friedrich Schiller

    The only philosophy which can be responsibly practised in face of despair is the attempt to contemplate all things as they would present themselves from the standpoint of redemption. - Theodor Adorno

  4. #4
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    I thought the distinction was basically the same world wide.

    Here's my version of a Liberal: ( I did not write this...but agree.)

    1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.

    2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

    3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than US nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.

    4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

    5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical documented changes in the earth’s climate and more affected by soccer moms driving SUV’s.

    6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.

    7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.

    8. You have to believe that the same teacher who can’t teach 4th-graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

    9. You have to believe that hunters don’t care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.

    10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

    11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make The Passion Of The Christ for financial gain only.

    12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

    13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

    14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Gen. Robert E. Lee, and Thomas Edison.

    15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.

    16. (no point to this one - will delete)

    17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn’t worked anywhere it’s been tried is because the right people haven’t been in charge.

    18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House, or a drunk murderer belongs in the senate.

    19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected, and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal. And Irish people should not be allowed to parade for their St. Patrick.

    20. You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese government is somehow in the best interest to the United States.

    21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.
    ---------------------------------------------
    And to be honest....reading it makes me wonder even more if people are born with their personal convictions, if it's a product of their environment or if it just comes down to their spiritual background. It's not Bush causing the 'polarization of America'....it's THESE things which people feel very strongly about.

    Again...didn't want to argue why either side was right or wrong....I just wonder why some believe one way and others believe another way.

  5. #5
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    That describes left-wings, but not the liberals over here,
    The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough. - Rabindranath Tagore

    Keep true to the dreams of your youth. - Friedrich Schiller

    The only philosophy which can be responsibly practised in face of despair is the attempt to contemplate all things as they would present themselves from the standpoint of redemption. - Theodor Adorno

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vautrin
    That describes left-wings, but not the liberals over here,
    See that's confusing. Our looney lefties are all liberals.

  7. #7
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    That list doesn't really follow what Liberalism classically has entailed, and it is worded in too much of a biased manner to be taken seriously. Did you get it from some shitty blog?

    Anways, Meriam and Webster tell me that Liberalism is this:
    2a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party
    Which is derived from the enlightenment, and some of these "looney libral" ideas were the basis of the government of the United States. Wikipedia tells me this:
    Liberalism is an ideology, broad political tradition, and current of political thought, which holds liberty as the primary political value.[1] Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on the power of government and religion (and sometimes corporations), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports private enterprise, and a system of government that is transparent. This form of government favors liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law, and an equal opportunity to succeed. Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property. In many countries, modern liberalism differs from classical liberalism by asserting that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over individual rights. Liberalism has it roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought, with adherents spanning a large part of the political spectrum, from left to right.
    Which the Democratic party certainly follows some of these ideas, it isn't a Liberal party. If you are talking about the current meaning of Liberal, then you are talking about the Republican party's tendency and ability to redefine words, and in the case of Liberal reduce it to a four-lettered insult.

    Conservatism is quite simply a philosophy that isn't receptive to fast change and values tradition. M-W says this of it:
    2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
    Wikipedia also has an article on Conservatism, but it isn't quite as quotable.

    Also, left ≠liberal, right ≠conservative.

  8. #8
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    Okay...Okay Dogula! I was just goofing around with Vautrin.

    I believe the list though because I'm a NeoCon.

  9. #9
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    that list was biased but the last part of #18 is so true, ted should be in prison. #5 was great.


  10. #10
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    Hey I almost Got Banned from L Shack years ago for using that list against the Dems.

    LOL I haven't seen that in awhile I love it!!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Hey I almost Got Banned from L Shack years ago for using that list against the Dems.

    LOL I haven't seen that in awhile I love it!!!
    I had it in an old Saver file....maybe I originally got it from you!

    Here is the other side of the coin:

    Conservatives think that there is one set of values in the U.S. that can be called "American Values." Liberals know that there are numerous value systems in the U.S. and that there is no such thing as "American Values."

    Conservatives think that American values are the best values in the world. Liberals know that American values are not any better or worse than those of most of the industrialized world, just different.

    Conservatives think that America should seek to impose its values on other countries but are resistant to any outside influence on their own values. Liberals know that there should be one set of overall values that all human beings should work towards those values, not just foreigners.

    Conservatives think that America never does anything bad, particularly their own leaders. Liberals know that America does many bad things in addition to the many good things America does. Liberals know that all leaders, regardless of ideology or party, are human and make mistakes, make bad choices and in extreme cases break the law.

    Conservatives believe that patriotism is one of the greatest things that someone can have. Liberals know that patriotism is another name for nationalism and leads to xenophobia and hatred.

    Conservatives believe that anyone who disagrees with them is un-American. Liberals know that those who disagree with us might still be good people who have America's best interests at heart.

    Conservatives believe that flag burning is an affront to America and should be made illegal. Liberals know that flag burning is a protected freedom and that making it illegal would be an insult to all Americans, particularly those who fought for American freedom. Liberals know that it is countries run by dictators and totalitarian parties that ban protest and dissent such as flag burning.

    Conservatives champion traditional American values. Liberals know that traditional American values include racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and many other negative aspects. Liberals know that we need to abandon traditional American values and forge newer and better values.
    -----------------------------

    I read all that and was more proud to be a Conservative than before I read it.

  12. #12
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    Liberals know that traditional American values include racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and many other negative aspects
    I think i would have to disagree with this statement Merika, unless i misunderstood what you've written ...which is always a possibliity.

    Conservatives/Chrisatians/neo-con's, what ever you wana call us, have never, as far as i know in all of history hated or trampled others using racism, sexism, or been homophobic (whatever the definition of homophobic is??) or xenophobia, i think that's the current idea/distortion the world has about Christains simply cause we are hated by the world. We also get branded by the leftist extremists for political reasons when someone does somethng disgusting to another human being for what ever reason. However, i don't see ACLU or other so-called humanitarian orginazations freaking out over babies being murdered by the millions in clinics, of which there have 74 MILLION murdered babies since the seventies!!! I don't see them freaking out when a church gets burned to the ground ...not even when it's a BLACK church!! And they claim to be biased, supporting EVERYONES rights?? PFFT thats funny at best.

    When blacks were slaves in America it wasn't the ACLU standing out side of court room doors praying to God asking America to free them, however it is a well known fact that many christains did. Abraham Lincoln, a man of deep moral principal and FAITH acted on his deeply held religous convictions and freed all black men in the name of GOD, even quoting scripture say all men were CREATED equal ...and he did it when it was not a very popular thing to do either!! However, some how through time Christians have gotten branded racists and blamed for the slave trade by some people? Now blacks vote liberal???? This makes absolutely no since to me at all, other than to say that they have been duped by liberal scare tactics into thinking conservatives are somehow their enemy. It's not conservatives looking to further enslave African Americans by perpetuating the welfare system etc... Sometimes it's good to force someone to stand on their own two feet even if they don't want to, and it's my opinion that's what most conservatives are trying to do, get the African American community to do stand on their own two feet. It's been well over 100 years since they were freed, got to get your act together and stop blaming everone else sometime.

    Then when a couple of losers claiming to be Christians go out and tie some poor homosexual kid to a post in Wyoming cause he pinched the others a$$ we got branded again!! Then all of the sudden it's like everyone in America believes it was a bunch of conservatives from the local baptist church who all decided to go out and murder some homosexual cause they simply had nothing better to do that night. However, there are many, many reformed homosexuals in churches today. So once again Christians get branded as homophobics this time. However, no one realizes being homosexual is considered sinful in our eyes and very taboo. In fact we aren't even supposed to hear someone else discuss homosexuality, thats how sinful it is considered!!

    Yet no one has any problems when the gay rights activists groups go into public schools telling children, including OURS, it's ok to be gay, reasuring them that they were born that way ...deliberatly trying to undermine traditional christain family principals by shoving their vile crap down our childrens throats before they are even old enough to contemplate what they are being told. Effectively brainwashing them, against their parents will. This is the definition of a predator in my opinion!! However, if a Christian came into a school telling everyone they were born to be a Christain they would prolly be jailed for the separation of church and state ...or some other kind of biased BS excuse like that.

    I am a neo-con. (i utterly hate that word, yet i embrace it. It's just a way for people who don't believe in my faith/values to make me feel like some type of Nazi for being unwilling to forgo these values and give in to their desires no matter if they are moral or not) and as part of my beliefs as a Christian/neo-co, what ever you want to call me, i am NOT afforted the right by God to break his laws/rules. I simply do not understand why liberals do not understand this concept.

    God does not allow me, or others for that matter, whether you like it or not, to break his laws period, never!! Never on this earth was a law broken, and people have yet to find that out. Volating those laws/commands will have repercussions later on, and it's only gets worse on you the more you understand the rules. Repercussions i am trying to aviod!!

    I may make mistakes in my life, and everyone does, but that does not make me a hypocrite when i refuse to allow others to force me to break those rules or accept their version of what's moraly acceptable. Not knowing and knowing the rules, yet breaking them, does not afford me the right of forgivness later on.

    I just wana clear this up as well, morality is NOT the human concept of treating other people with respect and love. It started as the human way of trying to classify and categorize Gods rules in particular circumstances. Which is a foolish, incredulas and impossible task. Somehow it has gotten skewed in modern times to mean be nice to others. Being moral may not at times mean be nice to them, i think people need to reconsider the definition of this word cause they have it wrong. So no it's not Conservatives that have changed, it's the world. But that's ok God does not change either, and i know some day i will be rewarded for refusing to adopt the current world veiw.

  13. #13
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    WHAT?

    where did you guys learn this stuff
    Remember you are unique...
    Just like everyone else...

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    I love Duke, Luba, Charbar, Aunty Honney and VachelVace!!! <3<3<3

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwoing
    WHAT?

    where did you guys learn this stuff
    I was wondering the same thing :?
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  15. #15
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    some of us are just really political, and US politics is more heated then Canada's.


  16. #16
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    Canada, and much else of the world:
    "Sir, you have insulted me."
    * carefully attends to his gloves, and slaps the offender in the face *

    US:
    "You [beep] have insulted me. You leave me no choice but to reveal your affairs to the world. Which I will, for the sake of the country."

    Or perhaps is it the other way around? That we teach kids in schools about various political ideas, and in practice it turns out to be mud-throwing anyway? Whether liberal, conservative, or socialist?
    The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough. - Rabindranath Tagore

    Keep true to the dreams of your youth. - Friedrich Schiller

    The only philosophy which can be responsibly practised in face of despair is the attempt to contemplate all things as they would present themselves from the standpoint of redemption. - Theodor Adorno

  17. #17
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    well i was taught liberal ideals at school, and i rejected them after awhile(i was 16 i think)


  18. #18
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    There is mud slinging for sure....but I really think people have deep seated feelings/ideas/points of views about certain issues which are very important to them. That's why I started the thread.....I wondered if those were inborn ideas or simply developed along the way.

    Like I said, I have 3 kids and each one is very different in most of their beliefs.

  19. #19
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    Politics and Religion are the same thing really. Everyone has an opinion, everyone wants their opinion heard and understood and everyone is correct in their opinion.

    There both very passionate (and sometimes heated) in nature. I can say that I have learned more about politics and religion on this site inside of 2 years than I have over a lifetime (which is truly sad).
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  20. #20
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    You know i used to be very liberal in another life, however i soon realized that the whole reason why our system fails is not because it's not a good system. It's because people refuse to follow the rules we make for the betterment of all people. Because they/we have no self discipline, we start messin around with laws that are actually quite perfect and just fudging things up worse. I mean look at the tax system, when it was formed it was quite fair to all people. Now, in order for the elite to keep all they have they've earned they have used their influence and money to lobby the law makers creating tax credits, deductions etc.. to keep more of their money.
    That's all fine and dandy with me, i feel everyone deserves to keep the money they earn. However, when you earn a disproportionate ammount of the money available in a system you should carry a disproportionate amount of social responsibility for the less forunate as well. that's why we have a tax system in the first place.

    Just to give you an idea of how disproportionate our system has become, and these are statistical facts i looked up from just a few years ago, 52% of the wealth in this country is divided among 5.2 % of the people in this country. That means half of everything in America is owned by approximately 1.5 million people. That's in a country of 380-90 million people.

    This is why our system fails people refuse to understand the reasons why we have laws and people refuse to become involved and change it. It's not up to law makers to make people pay their taxes, unless someone refuses to pay their fair share then it becomes their job to do something about it. However, because people don't or won't follow the rules as they are set up, law makers try to put a bandage on the whole stinking mess by adding ammendments to laws etc... to already functional laws. If this keeps up pretty soon we aren't going to even recoginise our our own Constitution any more!!

    I mean we wouldn't even have a need for the USAPATRIOT act if they would simply enforce the immigration laws already on the books. But instead of doing that and making Juan, his wife and their 84 children from Mexico get greencards to enter our country just like they do in every other country on earth, we just let them cross the Rio Grande with no concern for the tax system, terrorism etc... at all. Then we stand by when our people are killed or our seniors can't afford the prescription medication they need to stay alive because Juan didn't pay into the tax system like everyone else and instead he and his family raped the social security system taking out the money grandpa needs for hemoroid creme that he actually worked for, and wonder why.

    Unfortunately i have to agree with the democrates on this one, the PATRIOT act is bad, bad lagislation. I don't agree with it at all, we are going to loose our freedoms if it's not repealed. It's like Bush dosen't even understand why this system is so perfect in the first place, it was designd to be an equal balance of power between the executive, legislative and judical branches. NOT for the executive branch to have a disproportinate amount of power over the two others!! But i understand why we have a need for the PATRIOT act, it's cause we aren't enforcing the laws again and Bush is saying if someone wants to set off a nuclear weapon or perform terrorism in America there's nothing we can do to stop it!!!! But people refuse to read between the lines and get involved to enact a change, thus the BS continues.

    So, i don't actually lean to one side or the other in my politics, i try to listen with an open mind to both sides on any particular issue. It is in my best interest to do so and not be partisan but be intelligent and logical. However i do find that i tend to agree with the conservatives on issues far more than i do with liberals. It's like Liberals always wana put bandaids on things and act emotionally rather than actually address the heart of the issue logically, except when they feel they are going to actually have to be responsible for their own actions then they do anything to avoid that responsibility. Laws are there for a reasons, i feel all we need for a strong healthy country are people who care about it and will folow the rules WILLINGLY, even if the rules might be painful.

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