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  1. #1
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    California - May 1st

    I've been following the news on the big riots/protests planned for California from our ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants on May 1. There are supposed to be millions of them (the Muslims are joining in....not sure what is up with that!). They have threatened to close down business' and government buildings. Kids are even excused from being absent from school tomorrow due to street riots. I guess burning the American Flag and singing our National Anthem in Spanish with their words just wasn't enough.

    Now...call me crazy....but as an ILLLEGAL IMMIGRANT...they don't fall under our Constutitional Ammendment that allows assembling in the streets. I would bring in the National Guard, load them up on busses, and drop them off on the OTHER side of the border in the middle of the friggin Mexican desert.

    Meanwhile, California has brought on many of their own problems with their liberal ideas that look pretty on paper but just don't pan out in the real world. I'm hoping these goofy a$$ed Mexicans get a nice map to the 'Home of the Stars'....... and addresses of a handful of politicians in California who have spit for brains. (like Barbara Boxer)

    Should prove an interesting day. I took the day off from work. I don't want to MISS anything. It would be more fun if they had tried this in... lets say....Alabama or Georgia.

  2. #2
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    What happened to our country to allow illegal immigrants so much power and even allow them to have any rights. I hate paying for them and I hate that everything has to be in spanish and english because they don't want to learn our language. If we tried this in Mexico we would be imprisoned, tortured and possibly killed. Every sappy politician needs to be replaced. :x
    The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the moment you get up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to the office. (Robert Frost)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkdlady
    our language.
    The US does not have an official language. Besides, I have the strange idea that NYC stockbroker language won't get you too far in Redneckville. Not to mention Redneck talk in L.A. But that is a different matter.

    What is your language? Is it Truman Capote, Edgar Allen Poe, Ralph Waldo Emerson, or Thomas Paine? What to include and exclude?
    We have had similar debates here.

    Over here, before people outside of the EU can migrate here they have to:
    a) learn the official language wherever they live. Does not matter if there is not a soul in the entire country that does speak Dutch. We have 3(!) official languages, namely Dutch, Frisian and Sign Language, in case anyone wondered. The last two would not qualify. Equality of the languages has not even been established here.
    b) Get thoroughly immersed in Dutch culture. How you would do that, is a mystery to anyone involved.
    c) take a citizen's test. They are crappy, and a large percentage of the native born Dutch fail the test anyway. Strange enough those "impurities" (that is the whole ideology driving this crap) are not to be kicked out of the country, or otherwise dealt with. Sad to say, I might see it happen in my lifetime.

    A substantial minority in the Netherlands is not too fond of the royal family (they cost millions per year), so it is not clear to me why people who read the freaking royalty magazines should be more dutch than those who refuse to read all that crap. Even worse: why people should be granted Dutch citizenship, because they know who breeds with who.

    Not to mention that the procedures are long and lengthy. Marriage does not cut it in a lot of cases either. First you may be checked for fake marriages (that applies to all countries outside of the EU/EER), and then of course your partner has to earn enough --> automatically excludes all students, because they have an income of EUR 0.00 + all the loans they take out with the government (at 6% interest per year)

    The result? Immigration to the Netherlands almost came to a standstill, and the emigration from the Netherlands is booming business again. And it are not the people who are useless (from an economical or social POV) who are leaving.

    If we tried this in Mexico we would be imprisoned, tortured and possibly killed.
    Tortured? Please inform Mister Bush of this, so he has grounds to wage war on Mexico. Oh, sorry, the administration does not care that much about torture. As long as Americans benefit from torture, and are not the ones technically torturting, it is alright. :roll: Sad to say, with full Dutch support.

    The US is one of those countries, where giving birth to a child automatically means US citizenship. Why do you think Korean pregnant ladies come over to give birth to their children? Just that.

    And as far as I know, being somewhere illegally is not unconstitutional. You are not allowed to do squat, but that is a different matter. It also does not mean you are outside of the law. Unless of course, it is perfectly legal to rape / murder / torture / mutilate illegal immigrants ...

  4. #4
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    I certainly didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, Vautrin. Our country isn't perfect by any means and I didn't mean to imply that it was but this is a problem here. Illegal immigrants do put a drain on our economy and don't pay into it. I realize the people that hire them are also the problem because they don't want to pay a decent wage and they can get away with it because the illegal person isn't going to complain too much. I am sorry that conditions are so bad in their country but there are legal ways to enter ours and millions of others have for hundreds of years.
    The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the moment you get up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to the office. (Robert Frost)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkdlady
    I certainly didn't mean to offend you or anyone else, Vautrin.
    I was not offended at all tkdlady. Just pointing out how we solved the issue (and as people who are here illegally cannot make money in any way they are forced into crime or prostitution). Which is booming business right now.

    Illegal immigrants do put a drain on our economy and don't pay into it.
    Over here it is the opposite: they are often forced to pay for social premiums and such, without even possibly benefitting from them.

    Including retirement schemes (which on a population level are more benefitting the rich than the poor but that is besides the point), basic healthcare services, unemployment benefits, not to mention that they are often forced to work under sub-par levels (working hours, pay per hour, sick leave, etc.). All those premiums are paid by the worker, and either disappear in the bosses' pockets, or in the social security system.


    It is not the worker who makes the economy, but the company. The company does not give a jack, whether you or anyone else can't make a decent living. In fact, competitively speaking, they prefer you not to - to the level that you still consume their products though.

    For example: If Macrosoft can't compete if it would pay all its personnel $500K a year, it might be a solution for Macrosoft to hire some illegal immigrants for $20K a year. The result is the same for the company, but the consequences drastically different. So a few Americans lose out on those Macrosoft-jobs, but Macrosoft would be a competitive corporation world-wide because of that. Thus creating more jobs, etc. Would be good for other Americans as well.

    I realize the people that hire them are also the problem because they don't want to pay a decent wage and they can get away with it because the illegal person isn't going to complain too much.
    I suppose there are laws that apply to corporations as well. And as shocking as it may be, these laws could be upheld (I know, this is a major fear of big business), so the question would be, why there are practically no resources spent on catching these corporations.

    I would not be surprised if the RIAA gets more money, than everything that is supposed to uphold the laws on these matters.

    I am sorry that conditions are so bad in their country but there are legal ways to enter ours and millions of others have for hundreds of years.
    Legal ways? I doubt it, and certainly does not apply for everyone. Besides, who wants to hire a legal Mexican, protected by American law, and thus having a legal claim to a decent pay? Why not hire the illegal Mexican, for whom all this does not apply?

    Why pay someone $5,72 /hour if you can find someone who eagerly does it for less than half of that, without legal rights, and a strong work ethic - which is necessary to avoid a boss snitching on you?

  6. #6
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    Your last two paragraphs certainly are the biggest reason for the problem. Anyway, thanks for the mini debate. I am not a very political person but there are some things that get my dander up especially when it affects my paycheck. :?
    The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the moment you get up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to the office. (Robert Frost)

  7. #7
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    EU countries havnt treated illegal immigration, or even legal imigration any better. They try and keep people out.

    As for going to rally's and arresting people and sending them back, it wont work, how can you prove they are illegal, they could be legal, and you cant profile and make them prove it.

    On the other hand, they cant be allowed to act like they have done nothing wrong. All the people who waited and came here legally are being hurt.

    We need to make it easier for them to be here legally, the best way i have thought of is they can come for two years on a temporary basis and they have to reporrt to a case worker once a month, and if they are employed with no criminal record, they can pay a fee and extend their stay for another two years and can reapply until they get citizenship.

  8. #8
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    what i don't understand here is why the government is allowing ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to have such a say in anything?!? they are illegal immigrants so why don't they just ship them back to where they came from if they have no proof of immigration? this makes no sense at all.

    what kind of government allows this kind of this to happen? OMG! :?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star
    what kind of government allows this kind of this to happen?
    The same government that is profitting from it.

  10. #10
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    they are not profitting, its costing lots of money, but business benefits.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vautrin
    Quote Originally Posted by Star
    what kind of government allows this kind of this to happen?
    The same government that is profitting from it.
    You got any figures to back that up? Here are the REAL figures:



    American citizens: College and high school kids cannot find a summer job in yard care, landscape, fast food or service jobs. Why? Illegal aliens work them at a third the wage and often, under the table.

    Not only do young American not have jobs; their parents are paying taxes for illegal aliens who are not paying taxes.

    Annually, 75 percent of drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion hard currency that leaves our country for good. In addition, our tax dollars pay $80 billion for the War on Drugs each year. It is a war that hasn’t been won in the past 30 years and drugs are as available today to your teenager as they were in 1970.

    When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons—not to mention TV, movies, weight rooms and other entertainment—they enjoy while being incarcerated.

    Over 300,000 women annually arrive pregnant and drop them on U.S. soil. The American taxpayer pays for food, housing, medical and schooling for them to age 18 PLUS their mother.

    According to the Center for Immigration Studies, average annual cost per child K-12 is $7,161.00 and exceeds $109 billion annually per cycle of anchor babies.

    The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs.

    With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars. (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, August 2004)

    How about the $56 billion in pure cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries last year and every year? That’s after their kids enjoyed free education, free lunches and free medical care paid for by you.

    Mexico receives $15 billion annually from its worker drones. No wonder Vicente Fox sent us 9.2 million illegal alien Mexicans so far.

    The lifetime net fiscal drain—taxes paid minus services used—for an adult immigrant is $55,200.00 according to Carrying Capacity Network.

    With a minimum of 15 million illegal aliens in our country, these figures are the tip of the iceberg. Average bilingual education is $1,200.00 per illegal alien student.

    Get this! We educate 1.1 million illegal alien children each year. The American public has paid $27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English in 2003.

    An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually.

    California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, and four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care.

    Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003.

    What are the consequences? One in two adult African-Americans in New York is unemployed. African-American children’s poverty grew by 50 percent since 1999. Why? Their dads can’t find work.

    It costs the taxpayer, $68 billion a year.


    That is why we are p*ssed off!

    Why is it that we are the bad guys because we are suddenly sick and tired of feeding and housing the freeloaders of the world. If Europe feels sorry for them...fine. We'll put them on a boat and send them your way.

  12. #12
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    [quote="Merika"]
    You got any figures to back that up? Here are the REAL figures:
    Think of all the exports made possible by the use of illegal labour. Think of the fact that a lot of corporations would be completely out of business if it were not for illegal labor, with all its dire consequences. Admittedly, that has its downside too (less innovation, limiting true capitalistic competition, but corporations simply do not care that much about that anyway).

    American citizens: College and high school kids cannot find a summer job in yard care, landscape, fast food or service jobs. Why? Illegal aliens work them at a third the wage and often, under the table.
    Blame the alien, or blame the cheapass who is rich enough to buy a big house, but too poor / greedy to pay a decent wage?

    Not only do young American not have jobs; their parents are paying taxes for illegal aliens who are not paying taxes.
    Considering that the illegal aliens do pay taxes of some sorts (even if it is by virtue of wage they do not receive), these "taxes" disappear in the pockets of whomever hires them at these low wages. That won't be the average Joe, it are either:
    a) wealthy Americans who can afford hiring the nannies, gardeners, etc.
    b) big international corporations who need it to survive in a competitive market
    c) small corporations

    Annually, 75 percent of drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion hard currency that leaves our country for good.
    Capitalism works like that. If you refuse to create a local market (to grow all these drugs) that fulfills these needs, people will get it from elsewhere.
    Over here we have a similar problem with marihuana. It simply would be a lot cheaper to grow our own stuff, governments can tax it, and check for quality at all times as well.

    That applies to drugs too. With the added cost of the illegality of the whole thing adding quite a bit to the costs of the drugs. Just as the US does not get all of its oil from the local market, but prefers getting a large portion from other countries as well.

    In addition, our tax dollars pay $80 billion for the War on Drugs each year.
    The whole project is a waste of money, and with the methods used, it seems even likely to have increased drug production (because of the strategies used in Colombia for instance), thus forcing farmers often to grow coca-plants, because the gains are much bigger than with other crops, and those other crops don't offer any additional protection against the War on Drugs, nor would those crops be sufficient in a lot of cases for a decent livelihood.

    It is a war that hasn’t been won in the past 30 years and drugs are as available today to your teenager as they were in 1970.
    2.4 trillion dollars wasted (assuming equal real spending) over the course of 30 years.

    When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons—not to mention TV, movies, weight rooms and other entertainment—they enjoy while being incarcerated.
    A similar statistic applies to the legal people in the US. With possibly two added things (I am guessing here, but if the US judicial system works a bit like here, it should apply):
    a) illegal immigrants get harsher sentences on average. Thus costing more because of that.
    b) poverty effects. If you are too poor to pay for a product itself, but feel you desperately need it, you have to steal it. And the poorer you are, the more likely it is you have to resort to all these thug-like methods of obtaining things.

    Over 300,000 women annually arrive pregnant and drop them on U.S. soil. The American taxpayer pays for food, housing, medical and schooling for them to age 18 PLUS their mother.
    That applies not only to illegal immigrants. I already mentioned the Korean women.

    The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs.
    You forgot to add in the money that is not spent on all these taxes, by "virtue" of them receiving to little for their labor. That ends up in the corporations' pocket, or in the pocket of whomever employs them.
    I think a few years ago a Representative was caught with having an illegal immigrant as his nanny. Just goes to show that a lot of people, don't mind screwing the US, if it benefits themselves.

    With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars. (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, August 2004)
    You should add in the money that people save and are not turned into taxes as a result of that as well. If rich people (sorry for the generalization) use a lot of illegal immigrant labor, they are part of the problem as well.

    How about the $56 billion in pure cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries last year and every year? That’s after their kids enjoyed free education, free lunches and free medical care paid for by you.
    You would almost think that $3,000 a year is a capital. It is not. If they get paid half of what they would be entitled to as legal immigrants, they are paying in the system too. It simply does not turn up in the taxes, but that is because of the taxing system itself. If you refuse to tax people who dodge paying decent wages for people they hire, the money is simply disappearing in their pockets.

    With a minimum of 15 million illegal aliens in our country, these figures are the tip of the iceberg. Average bilingual education is $1,200.00 per illegal alien student.
    Cheap. I would pay US $750 for a simple course on Dutch (with native language English). And that is after all kinds of subsidies, so either it does not amount to squat or is extremely highly efficient. I would think the former though.

    Get this! We educate 1.1 million illegal alien children each year. The American public has paid $27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English in 2003.
    The Dutch have a simple solution for that: acknowledge Spanish as an official language and refuse to print anything in that language. That is what they are doing with the Frisians:x.

    And you have to, because both wings of the Party (Republican and Democratic) are afraid to lose offices as a result of any commited stance they could take on the issue.
    The idiotic idea to check that labor laws are upheld --> problems with businesses.
    The idiotic idea to ban illegal immigration --> problems with their voters
    The idiotic idea to legalize a portion of the current illegal aliens --> problems with their voters, problems with businesses.
    Net result? Nothing happens, the problem persists, and everyone in office at least happy that it has not gone wrong.

    An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually.
    Two-thirds are on the books, yet the US refuses to arrest the people who are responsible for willingly and knowingly dodging US labor laws? Makes perfect nonsense. That would apply to both the illegal immigrant and the people hiring them.

    California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, and four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004.
    Happens with the funding method in the US. The same is happening here, where illegal people are simply refused treatment because it cannot be paid for. Or are given treatment, and the people who are responsible for the treatment hoping that the hospital does not go bankrupt. BTW, I am sad to say that the same is starting to happen with people who are native Dutch as well, because of idiotic money-consuming changes in the health care system.

    What are the consequences? One in two adult African-Americans in New York is unemployed. African-American children’s poverty grew by 50 percent since 1999. Why? Their dads can’t find work.
    It is not only African-American children who suffer from that. And in a country where real wages have declined for more than 35 years, for all levels of the population, except for the upper 20%, it is highly doubtful that it is all because of illegal immigration.

    Furthermore, if the increase is so substantial and the government really cared about it, it would have actually done something about the illegal aliens, and those who profit from using their labor. So far, it has been a silence of deafening proportions.


    It costs the taxpayer, $68 billion a year.
    Only because you refuse to tax / fine the people who are profitting from illegal labor.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merika
    Why is it that we are the bad guys because we are suddenly sick and tired of feeding and housing the freeloaders of the world. If Europe feels sorry for them...fine. We'll put them on a boat and send them your way.
    I think the governement needs to ship them back where they came from. I still can't get over how your government thinks that's okay. it's terrible! if these people can't go to the states leagally, then they should all be sent back.

    why are the states housing these illegal immigrants in your jails anyhow? shouldn't they send them back when they commit a crime and let their own country deal with it?

    I'd be pissed too. don't blame ya there!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star
    I think the governement needs to ship them back where they came from. I still can't get over how your government thinks that's okay. it's terrible! if these people can't go to the states leagally, then they should all be sent back.
    Apparently it's such a massive and complicated problem...no one knows where to begin. During the Bush Administration alone...we've sent back 5 million illegal immigrants. But we have a pile up thru all the decades of Truman (D), Eisenhower (R), Kennedy (D), Johnson (D), Nixon (R), Ford (R), Carter (D), Reagan (R), GWH Bush (R), Clinton (D).

    Let's say Krystal runs off with an American boy and ends up in Chicago. They never marry but she has children, she runs a day care from her home...then she gets a drunk driving ticket. Now...theoretically she would be an illegal alien who has used USA hospitals, ran a business, and has used a jail facility. She may even be getting WIC and other family benefits. She isn't a bad person or a criminal...her children are USA citizens....why send her back to a home she may not even have anymore?

    As you can see....it gets real complicated. We've had marriages and such between Mexico and Canada for DECADES. Due to the open door policy...many couples have chosen to live in the USA. You can't just throw them out.

    Bush said ""Massive deportation of the people here is not going to work."
    "I know this is an emotional debate," Bush told the Orange County Business Council. "But one thing we can't lose site of is that we are talking about human beings, decent human beings."
    "You can be a nation of law and be a compassionate nation at the same time." he said.

    However, mixed in with all that is a whole lot of riff-raff and losers. The weeding process is gonna be tough....but it's certainly not something that you can make a blanket law and make everyone abide under it. It wouldn't be fair.

    Meanwhile....tax payers are fed up and this is the group they say have to go.

    So think back if Krystal was in this group. And you can see how complicated it becomes.

  15. #15
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    Vautrin...you are right in that we need to punish the companies who hire illegal aliens. It would be the perfect place to start. But by reading the above post....as you'll see...it gets far too personal and complicated to try to starve everyone out.

    I agree with Bush in giving them legal workers cards...so they can feed their families while getting their citizenship. We aren't trying to kick everyone out....only the ones who are criminals and have no intention of working and paying taxes.

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    well then, they need to start weeding them out. every illegal immigrant they find, put them through immigration, study their circumstances and if they're not trouble makers, give them citizenship so they can work and pay taxes like everyone else. it's a very long process but worth it in the end. especially if it's a huge problem. doing nothing about it will only make it get worse.
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  17. #17
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    That's exactly what we started doing. That's why they are rioting in the streets, burning our flag, and refusing to go to work.

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